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When?
On February 07, 2008 in Community building, On the J-web
Chris B Said,When lord…will a site be made that is teacher friendly?
All the forums are littered with flamers and snobs. The Soc is great but not for English teachers.If you didn’t know it you would think none of these people teach? Do they?What is it like to get paid to do a job and NOT want to be the best? I must be extremely competitive because I can’t even imagine not wanting to be #1??
Where are the sites showcasing ESL classes? Why no websites competing over which teacher can get the most students with high scores on the Eiken? Where have all the teachers gone?
As a former personnel manager for a small chain of eikaiwa schools, let me say:
1) Schools don’t showcase their ESL classes on the web, because they want potential students to actually come and try the lessons, not watch them online.
2) If Eikaiwa schools ranked their staff, students would always want the best teacher, particularly as they are all paying the same tuition fees. Imagine the pressure it would put on the teachers - they might be out of a job if they don’t score well, or will be overworked (for the same salary) if they do score well.
3) Most of our teachers were only in Japan for a year. Not all of them had internet access, and even those that did spent most of their free time enjoying the country they had come to visit.
4) Our schools offered Eiken, but few of the students chose to take it. Most parents sent their children to juku for serious study, and eikaiwa for fun, conversational lessons with a native speaker.
5) Most teachers do try hard, but few of them are really motivated. They get their salary whether they work hard or not, and it’s common knowledge that they are really here to explore Japan, not because they are passionate teachers looking to build their career in… eikaiwa.
6) Chris, you run your own school so it is in your interests to be the best. For the majority of ESL teachers in Japan, there is little incentive to work so hard because a) salary doesn’t change b) no bonuses c) no promotion d) different students every class.
Major eikaiwa chains offer flexible classes, so the teachers don’t know which students will come to their classes. Even if you could measure the student’s progress level, you wouldn’t know which teacher was responsible for the majority of the improvement. Plus, Japanese students often pick “friendliness and humor” over “teaching skill” when judging their teachers.
There’s a mishmash of reasons why teachers aren’t on the web comparing Eiken results and competing to be the #1 teacher.
“and it’s common knowledge that they are really here to explore Japan, not because they are passionate teachers looking to build their career in… eikaiwa.”
The sad truth.
Meanwhile,
My students are the best at their Juku’s and the best speakers among their peers. They don’t need 2 different schools for this.
The fact that most think they do need two schools is an indication of just how bad it is in this country.
“Chris, you run your own school so it is in your interests to be the best.”
Nick, I teach my ass off because thats what I do good. I take pride in building the better mouse trap. I don’t consider any “interests” when kicking English ass other than that’s how pops taught me.
“Imagine the pressure it would put on the teachers - they might be out of a job if they don’t score well, ”
You say that like it’s a bad thing?
These people are getting paid, they signed a contract, we are not selling bento’s! They should be tested and the ill-equipped should be sent packing!! No sympathy for adults who made bad choices and got into a profession they have no right being in.
Go back home and study Kanji on your own dime!!
“comparing Eiken results”
I never mentioned any such thing.
I hear what you’re saying, and I think it would be wonderful for Japan’s English level if teachers were as dedicated as you obviously are, but we both know that’s not going to happen.
I would advertise for a teacher on the net and get maybe 30 replies. 25 of those would be from non-native speakers who apply for anything regardless of whether the ad specifies native English speakers or not, and the other 5 would be from people with mixed experience and qualifications, but in most cases they would turn the tables and bombard me with questions about salary, holidays and other working conditions, checking to see if we “deserved” their services. It was hard finding good people.
I came to Japan in ‘97 and since ESL job ads on the net were pretty much non-existent, I came to Japan as a tourist to find work. I was grateful just to get an interview and would have accepted any offer I got (which I eventually did).
These days, newcomers can take their pick from all the schools advertising online. It’s easy to get a job here now. That’s just made people more picky about the schools they work for, and employers more desperate for teachers. In other words, employers have to hire the best of a bad bunch. The really committed teachers do the smart thing and study for a Masters so they can get into the universities.
You’re right, you didn’t mention comparing Eiken results. Tori did.
As for the net, you’ll find a lot of dedicated teachers on K-12 forums, but most of what they talk about won’t apply to ESL. Edutagger.com is a new social bookmarking site for K-12 education, but it’s struggling to generate discussion. For ESL, the friendliest place I’ve been to is the MES-English forums.
Thanks for the post Nick.
Everything you said is right on the money!
I’ll check that site. Thanks!!
When I was teaching at an eikaiwa, there was plenty of management pressure to compete: sell the most self-study materials! interview and snag the most prospective students! None of the pressure was welcome; we hated our company and hated the fact that we were expected to sell more (useful) materials and get more students.
Both of my coworkers, however, were dedicated teachers who cared about their students. They devoted a lot of time and thought to preparation. I was new to teaching, but I quickly wanted to catch up to their level.
So, when you talk about teachers not being competitive, I think you are focusing on the wrong things. Competition forced on teachers by a company they disdain leaves a bad taste in their mouths for any such competition in general. That doesn’t mean they don’t try to be the best.
(And these good teachers I mention, they did not have much of an online life.)
“and it’s common knowledge that they are really here to explore Japan”
“In other words, employers have to hire the best of a bad bunch.”
It is sad. And true.
I taught at a “mom and pop” school for about a year and half during university. I enjoyed it (I love teaching in general) and I was serious about it. I figure if you are not going to be serious about it you have no business teaching
But let’s face it, many aren’t serious. And that goes for teachers and students. Many of my students were taking lessons as a hobby. When I first started I would ask students why they wanted to learn English (what they were planning to use it for) and many of them didn’t have an answer.
On the teacher side, there are teachers that treat the job as a joke and teachers who flirt with or even date their students. There are some eikaiwa services (ones without actual classrooms, that instead only match students with freelance teachers) that are more like dating services. So it is a sad state indeed.
To me this all shows a lack of respect for the language.
On the other hand I had several students who were very serious about their studies. I had one student (an alumni from my university no less!) who was working for Sony’s patent department. She had excellent reading and writing skills but needed to work on her conversational skills for meetings that she had to attend in California for Sony USA. For me, as a business student, it was really exciting teaching her and helping her prepare for those meetings. I had several other students like her who were actually there to learn English and then use it (imagine that!). Some travelled or used English for business. Some dreamed of working and living abroad. Some were returnees and wanted to maintain their English level.
Helping them was a great experience (very rewarding) and in many ways I miss it. I think it is a shame that more people aren’t talking about enjoying teaching, or their classes and students, etc. It seems like all the talk about teaching is negative: dissatisfied/bored teachers, Nova. Or maybe that talk is just louder.
It’s good to vent. In any case, I’m glad that this blog is becoming a place where we can discuss things like this. And more than just discuss sometimes there are good answers, like MES-english and edutagger (digg-clones are popping up everywhere!).
About that Eiken competition comment, I was just thinking about a friendly competition between two teachers. But it was only a random idea anyway.
@ Nick
What did you think of that JapanHopper idea I mentioned?
@Chemist, I’ve added my thoughts on your JapanHopper idea to the post about your idea.
If the eikaiwa market sees a growing demand for better teachers, you’ll see better quality of teaching at eikaiwa schools. There are many different kinds of students who want different things from their eikaiwa experiences, but in my experience, most of them did not take their studies seriously enough to make them worthwhile.
I may get flamed for this, but I used my first eikaiwa job as a means to live in Japan. At that job, I was overworked and generally just had to slug my way through a brutal schedule every day. The job never provided my with the chance to fully prepare quality lessons, so I never gave a crap about providing them. I taught mathematics back in the States before coming to Japan, and always took pride in being good at what I did, but that first eikaiwa job took it out of me.
I went on to better English teaching jobs, honed my skills as an English teacher and found a niche for myself. But, I don’t begrude the working holiday types who use eikaiwa jobs to support themselves while enjoying Japan.
Hi all,
I’m the owner of edutagger.com and noticed a couple of people bring it up. It is very new and does not have a huge user-base at the time of this post, but my hope is that it’ll grow to a point where there’ll be enough users to promote a representative selection of quality links… and hopefully bring in some discussion. It’s not a “forum” but it is a community, and i’d love to get more users involved.
It certainly is of close relation to Digg, but i believe that’s needed as the educational community will be able to find a better selection of content, with more appropriate filters. For example, searching for “games” on Digg will result in a large number of educationally-irrelevant links, something EduTagger will avoid.
As I said, i’d love to have more users involved, or “edutaggers” as I like to call them, and really appreciate the snippets of feedback i’ve been receiving.
I don’t respect anyone who thinks the education and inspiration of a young mind is anything less than top shelf.
A lot of you bitch about this and bitch about that and seem to ignore how it became so.
“The job never provided my with the chance to fully prepare quality lessons, so I never gave a crap about providing them.”
So it’s the jobs fault?
You gotz no fukin pride bro.
I got a beach house in Hawaii cuz I get paid. I get paid cuz I bring the goods. I bring the goods cuz i got pride. I had pride when i was making 280,000yen working for a dragon lady and I got pride now when I’m making 4x that.
You made shit lessons because that’s what you do. Not because of what someone did to you.
Wow, you sure hold nothing back, Chris! Great entertainment value here at the Daily J!
You said: “All the forums are littered with flamers and snobs.”
You then makes comment number 9 - LMAO!!!!
However, you have a point:
Schools want great teachers -> none come -> Schools hire Japan seeking newbies -> lots come -> Japan seeking newbies can’t teach -> Schools make “auto-lessons” that require no teaching skill or prep -> Schools then open new classes in the time previously reserved for prep -> Japan seeking newbies complain about being “overworked” -> Japan seeking newbies quit and new ones come -> Schools, embarrassed by teacher-turnover, introduce flexible lessons with different Japan seeking newbies in each class! -> Japan seeking newbies have made themselves replaceable -> Schools cut salaries, increase working hours -> Potential Japan seeking newbies start shopping around for the “best” schools to “work” at -> (The future:) Schools launch marketing campaigns championing EIL (English as an International Language) and hire non-native English speakers instead!
I don’t blame the teachers, nor do I blame the schools. It’s just the way the industry is and I agree with southofreality when he says it would take “a growing demand for better teachers” to change it.
Chris, if you’re making that much money, one week’s income is all you’d need to have someone build you your own ESL website… but you’d still get the same old flamers and snobs.
“So it’s the jobs fault?
You gotz no fukin pride bro.”
Gee, thanks for providing me with the motivation to look inside myself and see that I’m just a complete loser. You should get paid for this kind of counseling.
“You made shit lessons because that’s what you do. Not because of what someone did to you.”
Chris, I understand that you take a lot of pride in your school and your work ethic. I don’t doubt your teaching abilities at all. You’re a dedicated guy, and everyone can see that. Give the rest of us mere mortals a break, will ya?
I could have worded that different.
My apologies!!
Hehehe
I don’t know if we’ve provided the “teacher-friendly” but there is definitely some good discussion going.
“Gee, thanks for providing me with the motivation to look inside myself and see that I’m just a complete loser.”
Behind the bickering, deep down, you know you love each other. Come on, give each other a hug…
Don’t worry about it, Chris. I understand.
Chris takes his teaching very seriously. I appreciate the passion he has for it.
Personally, I really like teaching. But, I don’t do it well in a sweatshop type of environment. And, I’m cool with that. I’ve gotta look out for me, too. And, if an employer wants my best, that employer’ll have to respect my feelings about that. I’ll work hard, but I’m nobody’s slave.
I know bro,
sorry about sounding like an a__hole.
Don’t take me wrong, I just get tunnel vision sometimes.
I have never met you or seen you teach so I have no right making judgments. I often sound ignorant but I’m not. I just speak off the cuff and that is not always the best way.
If any of you ever comes down to the Hiroshima area stop by and get a kick a__ cheeseburger and some lively debate!!
By the way I just got my 10,000 blog hit. Everyone who visits and leaves a message gets a free quadrupe chz burger
Aloha.
@aak
Thanks for commenting! Sorry your comment posted late, it was stuck in moderation.
I agree with you about competition forced on teachers by their company. No fun there.
I was think more along the lines of friendly competition (just for fun) that teachers would arrange independently. But it might be a flawed idea.
@Mark
: Bloggers are probably your best bet for spreading the word about edutagger.
Thanks for dropping in and commenting!
Most of the DailyJ regulars are no strangers to digg-like sites since we are active on http://Japansoc.com (a Japan-related pligg).
Maybe that will translate to some interest in Edutagger and on top of that many of us are/were English teachers.
It seems like pliggs will become more and more common in the future. And your edutagger is a great use of pligg.
Digg.com is definitely too general for for people to find education-specific things.
Just my humble unsolicited advice
JapanSoc’s community is made up mostly of bloggers (at the moment).
To support and promote JapanSoc we created a page on a Japan-related wiki project. The page uses a list we had of 140+ Japan-related blogs. We surf the list for good articles, submit them to JapanSoc, and then check them off on the list. Submitting an article from a blog lets the blogger know about JapanSoc (because of the trackback) and hopefully they join the community.
Well, those are my 2 yen
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